249 -It Is So Good That This Is Real

249 - It Is So Good That This Is Real

Promo

[00:00:00]

Cold Cut

[00:00:03] Amy: , the conversation just flowed. It was such a juxtaposition to feel like I'm meeting with someone I don't know, but also meeting someone I knew forever at the same time. There was a comfortability I didn't expect

[00:00:51] Damon: I'm Damon Davis and you're about to hear from Amy. She spoke to me from Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Amy was told she was adopted before her teen [00:01:00] years, which left her in a state of shock, but suddenly making sense of her family. in college, Amy's coming out created a rift in her family, A scenario that Amy worried would repeat itself if adoption reunion occurred.

[00:01:14] Damon: Thankfully, Amy's birth mother recognized her happiness and committed to whatever Amy needed in reunion. Listen until the end when you hear how Amy had to adopt her own child even though she's married. This is Amy's Journey.

Opening

[00:01:30] Damon: Amy grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. She lived a typical two parent, middle class childhood as the oldest of three kids. Amy's two brothers are biological to their parents. She grew up in the Catholic school system, played sports and had a pretty positive upbringing. But she said high school was challenging because the dynamics with her adoptive mother had become strained At the time of her aunt's passing, I asked why Amy's aunt's passing [00:02:00] was such a significant life event.

[00:02:03] Amy: It was significant because her and my adopted mother it, it, it'll be a little bit of a challenge for me to go back and forth with the terminology.

[00:02:12] Amy: So I'm going to try to, to say adopted mother and birth mother because I view very much that they're both my mothers. So it was a challenge because she was unfortunately Addicted to pain medication. And it was a line in the sand in the family when she passed, it was very hard on my adopted mother.

[00:02:33] Amy: She went into a very deep depression and that was my sophomore year in high school, and in that time you're trying to figure out who you are as a teenager, I've learned a lot of what goes on just through my own research and, the identity issues that we have as adoptees, And, looking back on that time, it it was very difficult and it, and it severed ties in the family lack of communication and just being around my cousins, for example.

[00:02:59] Amy: [00:03:00] And it was just a really difficult time. Um, And that kind of was a line in the sand where, my mother was in a deep depression. I was a teenager trying to figure out, My path, who I was and you know, kind of dancing a fine line there of, exploration and wanting to be with my friends and not with my family.

[00:03:20] Amy: And it was really tough. And I don't think I know she never got over it.

[00:03:25] Damon: Really? Oh, that's sorry. I'm sorry to hear that. That sounds incredibly challenging. So you're, tell me what kind of kid were you and how did you get along with your parents? You've told me that you had two siblings who were genetic to your parents and they are younger than you.

[00:03:42] Damon: Correct.

[00:03:44] Amy: They're younger than me. So, We got along very well growing up, typical kids stuff. We're very close in age. So there's 18 and 20 months that separate the three of us. So I was raised no differently. I, I wasn't told I was adopted until I [00:04:00] was 10. So I didn't know.

[00:04:02] Amy: And, looking back on that time, I remember them sitting me down. It was summertime, I can see the living room. I can see that, the pattern on the couch, to those types of specifics and them telling me and telling me my that beginning story of how I came to be adopted and really.

[00:04:20] Amy: For me at that time, I was like, wow, now that makes sense. Why don't look like anybody around here and, putting those Pieces together. And they're like do you have any questions? And I'm like, not that I can think of. Cause you know, at that point, I think I was in shock more than anything.

[00:04:36] Amy: And then it never came up again. It wasn't talked about, you know, it was, every once in a while, especially after that initial, like, Hey, guess what? You're adopted. Mom would check in on me. She said, Hey, I'm just checking in on you. Like I would say for the first week or so after that.

[00:04:51] Amy: And I'd be like, I'm fine. I don't want to talk about it. And I did it. And they didn't tell my brothers until, so that would have been about [00:05:00] 1990 that they told me, they told them about four years later. And again, it was like this, like, okay, we're going to all sit down and have a family talk and your sister's adopted and, it's no big deal.

[00:05:11] Amy: And they were like, they were preteen boys, typical

[00:05:14] Damon: boys.

[00:05:15] Amy: Yeah. They're like, all right, that's cool. I'm still gonna, make fun of her and, whatever. So we just all continued on. So my, my mom would try to talk to me like as a teenager, she would say, Hey, I, do you have any questions?

[00:05:29] Amy: I, you really look like your aunt and if you have

[00:05:34] Damon: referring to your genetic aunt,

[00:05:36] Amy: genetic aunt. Yes.

[00:05:38] Damon: Okay. And

[00:05:38] Amy: That goes into how I came to be adopted. And I would, I would say, no, I'm good. That's interesting, but no, I don't want to talk about it. And so the story is it's very unique.

[00:05:50] Amy: Let me get,

[00:05:50] Damon: before you get to the story, let me ask a couple of questions. Some things arose for me that I wanted to just get a little understanding on. I [00:06:00] personally think of a 10 year old learning that they are adopted as in late discovery adoptee. How do you feel about it?

[00:06:07] Amy: Really? Wow.

[00:06:08] Amy: I never put it in that context, David, to be honest with you. Just because. I've listened to stories of late discovery adoptees. A good friend of mine found out I, in his early thirties. And I've know his story obviously, so I've never thought of it in that context.

[00:06:25] Amy: So I do think that there are, for me. I appreciated that it was never something that attention was called to because I know I wouldn't have liked as a kid. I was very outgoing, very, boisterous and, I was very much, I took care of my brothers, love them to death, all of those things.

[00:06:49] Amy: So I'm glad I was never, it was never like, Hey, she's different than everybody, even though internally. I knew I was, I very much knew I was as a teenager. That's where it [00:07:00] really started hitting home for me. I'm like, I'm not like them. They don't understand me. Very much came through. you know, That's something I would probably really have to think about.

[00:07:09] Amy: But yeah, that's the

[00:07:11] Damon: Yeah, I think the reason that I think that, and I'll say as a caveat, it is not my experience. I am not a late discovery adoptee. I grew up knowing that I was adopted as in, from, my earliest days, but the reason I think of it that way is because. My opinion is that when the revelation that a person is adopted is a newsflash, as it sounds like it was in your life, you were to live in just fine.

[00:07:37] Damon: And then all of a sudden there were two big moments, one where you individually were sat down and informed that you were adopted. And then multiple years later, there was another newsflash where everybody else in the family got to know that you were adopted, this kind of thing. continual revealing of the fact that you're adopted and not just growing up with it from when you were 23, like [00:08:00] even younger, just knowing it just feels like that newsflash kind of moment, regardless of when it happens.

[00:08:07] Damon: If you're able to apply some level of cognition to it and think about it, to me that feels like late discovery. I was living on this trajectory of thinking of who I was, and now you've told me I'm on this trajectory, and to me that's different. So that, I just wanted to see how that sat with you.

[00:08:22] Amy: yeah, for sure, definitely. Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:08:25] Damon: The other thing I was wondering about is, adoption can sometimes be a joke, in movies and things like that, or people will say practical joke. I used to always joke with my brother that she was that he was adopted, right? And I'm just curious if it ever came up as a joke with, your siblings once they found out.

[00:08:43] Damon: They may not have known how sensitive it could be, but I was just curious if that was ever a joke between them.

[00:08:50] Amy: Never once. Which is a testament to how we were raised, I would say, for sure. There was a lot of other jokes that I could say were like, oh, quite

[00:08:59] Damon: [00:09:00] distasteful. I'm sure

[00:09:02] Amy: and I told them out too, to be fair.

[00:09:04] Amy: But yeah. No, never. And that's great and maybe that's because it was a thing that just wasn't talked about and. And I think that was just the culture of maybe adoption at that time. I mean, I was growing up in the, eighties and the nineties wasn't prevalent. I will say, I didn't know why I hated the movie elf until my journey started in reunion.

[00:09:28] Amy: And that's

very interesting. Yeah. Why don't

[00:09:31] Amy: I like this movie? Oh, now I know why I don't like this movie. So

[00:09:37] Damon: Will Ferrell is so drastically different from his family, right? And he stands out. So tell me about this. standing out that you've said, Oh, now it makes sense. So to go back, your parents sit you down at 10 years old, they reveal to you that you're adopted.

[00:09:55] Damon: And this is a revelatory moment when you're like, Oh, now these things that [00:10:00] are like incongruences between me and the rest of you make sense. Yeah. What kinds of things were those that stood out for you as differentiators between you and them?

[00:10:09] Amy: Absolutely. So setting all the, The just the purely like, I don't look like them.

[00:10:16] Amy: Pieces aside I grew up in a white Caucasian family. So there was some passing that I was afforded, right? I had that a little bit of that privilege. I recognize that. But my personality, my interests were very different. I'm an extrovert. The majority of my immediate family is not that they're introverts, And, I wanted to be, I wanted to be social. I wanted to play sports. My, my parents weren't sports people. And that is, that was yeah, we'll do it because you really want to, but we don't understand. Why you want to do this so much. I was involved in every activity. I could be in school, especially high school.

[00:10:58] Amy: I was on the I [00:11:00] did yearbook. I was the director of the pep club. I was the, the MC at pretty much everything at school events and, always just putting myself out there very much in leadership roles, which is, that trajectory has continued throughout my professional career.

[00:11:15] Amy: so yeah, I just didn't feel like I fit, you know, and I had a very strong I had a very tight knit group of friends that That were, we were always there for each other. We were each going through different things, with our families at that time. And we were a very clear support network for each other.

[00:11:34] Amy: So we were always together. We work together. We all worked at the local grocery store and my, my mom in particular, why do you always want to be with your friends and not your family? Why not? Can't you just stay home? Why don't you want to stay home? No, you can't go out.

[00:11:49] Amy: No, you can't do, you can't do this. You can't do that. And, and sometimes it became accusatory of, oh, are you out drinking? Are you out doing this and that? And I'm like, look, I, [00:12:00] I'm, I'm a teenager. I'm trying, trying, you know, this is me looking back on it, of course, but I'm like, I'm just trying to figure out my way in life.

[00:12:09] Amy: And, I knew I wanted to go to college and I wanted to get out. Like I have this very much a feeling of, I need to be free. Need to be set free from this. And that was really important to me. So it caused a lot of turmoil. My, my dad, fantastic. I mean, he supported me. He would take me places.

[00:12:32] Amy: I would be like, dad, I need to, can you take me over, so and so's house and he would take me and he would listen to me as I would complain about my mother and, not understanding why she was, The way she was and, whatnot, and he was always there through that conflict and he never took her side.

[00:12:48] Amy: He just listened. He's always been my, my rock throughout my whole life.

[00:12:54] Damon: Yeah, that's really cool. It's really interesting to hear those differences. [00:13:00] Especially as you said it like I'm trying to do me. I'm trying to figure me out,

[00:13:05] Amy: right? Yes, it

[00:13:06] Damon: can be very stifling when anybody is Pulling you back, I want to go explore over here and do this leadership thing and I want to you know Lead this charge over here and someone is saying just be home like just be home with and it's just it can be very Tiresome. I know what you're saying there's a, I frequently tell my family, there's a whole great big world out there, right?

[00:13:28] Damon: And let's go explore it. You know what I mean? Like, let's roll. We can come home and rest, but let's go see some stuff. So I have the sense that's what you were feeling too.

[00:13:37] Amy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And trying to just almost escape, I would say that feeling of, especially in that line in the stand I talked about when my aunt passed and, my mom experiencing, heavy depression and, you me just saying I can't do this.

[00:13:54] Amy: I'm a positive person. I always say I was born with rose colored glasses. If you know anything about the Enneagram, I'm a [00:14:00] seven the enthusiast and those really heavy feelings, I'm like, Ooh, I don't to engage with this. This is not me naturally. And that's been a challenge in my reunion journey and my coming out of the fog, really having to learn how to sit with grief

[00:14:17] Damon: From high school going into college. The urge to escape was always with Amy, but also with her, was her best friend since second grade. Tara. she was with Amy through her high school years, and even though they didn't go to the same college, Amy said she always had Tara as a sounding board.

[00:14:35] Damon: Amy could call Tara and she would be right there Amy would just jump in her car and start to vent.

[00:14:41] Amy: I'm really eternally grateful for a lot of reasons, but I would say I'm not like them. I remember saying that over and over again and in different times, like they don't understand me or I would be, or I would say things like, I am so glad I'm not genetically related to [00:15:00] them. that came out a lot. I would say during my teenage years when it was so tumultuous

[00:15:05] Damon: Amy's freshman year of college was a great experience. She was out on her own, living it up, enjoying the vibrance of an independent life. But then, she had an existential moment that made things a lot more difficult at home.

[00:15:19] Amy: I recognized that I was gay and I came out to my parents. I was 18 years old at the time it was over Christmas break and it did not go well. I, it was, it was 1998.

[00:15:35] Amy: Was raised in a Catholic family. And, things got even more difficult. It was, you need to go to therapy. You need to talk to a priest. And I'm like, no, I don't. I said, you need to go. you're the one that has a problem with this. I'm not the one that has a problem with this.

[00:15:55] Amy: That didn't go over well.

[00:15:57] Damon: Can you tell me about this lead up to this moment when you're [00:16:00] 18 years old? cause this is again, not my experience. I've not had to come out on any way. I've often joked, as a black person, you don't have to come out with your color. It's just there, but something like realizing you're gay, lesbian, LGBTQ plus, that is a moment that you have to actually declare for other people to recognize a piece of who you are. Tell me about this. lead up to realizing I want to tell my parents this.

[00:16:26] Amy: So I had decided that I was like, I can't lie to them. I have to be honest with who I am and the language around that in my house was growing up was there was nothing wrong with it.

[00:16:37] Amy: People are allowed to be who they are. And even for a religious family that I would say, it's. That's not the common language in some people's experiences, I would say. So

[00:16:51] Damon: even with regard to being LGBTQ, the language in your house was people are allowed to be who they are, or [00:17:00] it was just people who are allowed to be who they are, and it wasn't specifically said about being LGBTQ, because there's a big difference there.

[00:17:07] Amy: Yeah, no, I remember my mom saying it's okay to be gay. We should love everybody, right? And it's You know, and it wasn't talked about a lot, but just enough to know that it wasn't something that was going to be was going to be excommunicated from the family. Let's put it that way. So when I, I shared that information, I was expecting a different reaction.

[00:17:34] Amy: I was expecting it to be hard. I was not expecting it to be as difficult as it was. So it was very difficult in the fact that I think it was okay for other people to be. But not their daughter, right? And

[00:17:52] Damon: I meant over there, I meant those people,

[00:17:56] Amy: but it's not okay for you. [00:18:00] So at 18, that wasn't something I was prepared for.

[00:18:02] Amy: I'm thinking, okay, like, it was like, we still love you. But, and what happened was everything tightened around me. in relationship to my parents. So I was a scholarship athlete. I played volleyball and softball. I did not have the ability to work during the season.

[00:18:23] Amy: So my parents had set up like a, an ATM card for me and I was allowed to draw down. I think at that time it was like 20 bucks a week or whatever for spend money. And I didn't have my own car. I was allowed to borrow their car. From time to time that all ended the ATM card and away from me.

[00:18:41] Amy: Yep. I wasn't allowed to use the car. They knew who my girlfriend was at that time. I wasn't allowed to call her from the house. She wasn't allowed to pick me up in front of the house. I distinctly remember that summer when I came home from college, how difficult it was. Like I would, at one [00:19:00] point I walked to a pay phone to call her to come pick me up.

[00:19:03] Amy: So it was very challenging. It was almost like, if we, can get you away from this girlfriend. Who's the reason that you're this way and you're really not this way. Every I'll be okay. And it wasn't, that just wasn't the truth of the matter. And that was another wedge in our relationship you just, you can't forget those things, you know, things got better over time.

[00:19:27] Amy: Certainly, but those initial, I would say few years were very difficult because of the, restrictions put on different things around me. And then on top of that, I had to transfer colleges and I had to end up living at home my sophomore year. And that was just one fight after another, where are you going?

[00:19:48] Amy: Why are you going there? What are you doing? When are you, you know, all of those things. So I went from a year of being on my own, in the dorm to being back at home [00:20:00] and heavily

[00:20:01] Damon: restricted and judged

[00:20:03] Amy: very much. So that was that was tough. That was really tough.

[00:20:07] Damon: I'll bet it was. I'm sorry.

[00:20:08] Damon: That must have been so wild for you to have heard the language of support and then have it not be the case at all, right? Just, it's just not true.

[00:20:19] Amy: I don't get it. And the whole like you're going to go to hell. And I'm like, I don't, that's not going to happen. and through all this, I've kind of had to a lot of that.

[00:20:30] Amy: A lot of those things as well.

[00:20:33] Damon: May I ask a tangential question? How did your coming out experience with your parents the judgment that they placed on you, how do you reflect on that as it applies to your religious upbringing? A lot of people will say, I was raised that way and those are our beliefs.

[00:20:56] Damon: However, now that I've discovered who I am and it doesn't work [00:21:00] for that religion, and I'm not just saying this about Catholicism, it's about many different religions and the parents who raise their children in these religions, I'm just curious how you reflected on your, sexuality and sexual identification and How you were raised in religion and the fact that they don't necessarily jive.

[00:21:20] Amy: That I think that was probably the most difficult things for me to come to terms with because that's not how we were raised. The, I can say, unequivocally, I had a very positive experience in Catholic school. There's a lot of things that, people can say they, they had very negative experiences and, that's been news and whatnot.

[00:21:41] Amy: I didn't have those experiences. I had a phenomenal experience in high school in particular. It was a smaller high school. Afforded me a lot of opportunities to, be a leader and had really great academics, those types of things that set me up for my future and in my career, and just welcoming [00:22:00] and loving.

[00:22:00] Amy: So when this happened, when this converged, I'm like, It's a bunch of smoke and mirrors, honestly. And, just because, Catholics might not say it out loud as often as other religions doesn't mean it's okay. So that has been a real challenge over time. I mean, I don't practice anymore.

[00:22:20] Amy: I haven't since that period in my life. And it's. It's a challenge. It really is. It's an ongoing challenge because my birth mother is very much Catholic. She, is, it's really important to her and I recognize that and I respect that. But it doesn't line up with my long term experiences.

[00:22:41] Damon: Amy said a combination of things culminated in her desire to search for her birth family.

[00:22:47] Damon: When she was a teenager, she was searching for her birth certificate to make sure she had everything she needed for employment. That's when she found her original birth certificate. Amy said she recalls the details of the room [00:23:00] and how she felt seeing her birth mother's name on that piece of paper.

[00:23:04] Damon: Seeing the woman's very Irish name In print, clued her in that she was Irish too, a fact she had not known about her natural self. she said she thought about the information and held it for a long time. But at 18 years old, she was not ready for adoption search.

[00:23:22] Amy: There was too much going on. It was like, Oh, I came out like, Ooh, I know. she's Catholic. Like I can't deal with two mothers that don't accept who I am. Like, there's just, it's, I just

can't.

Yeah, that's a lot. .

[00:23:35] Amy: So that

is a lot.

[00:23:36] Amy: I definitely wasn't, like, I wasn't ready.

[00:23:38] Damon: In her mid thirties, Amy started going online, Googling the woman's name. Periodically, she would search for information in the county where she was born based on the information she found on her birth certificate. Late at night, Amy tried to come up with information about the woman who gave birth to her when she was 17 years old.

[00:23:57] Damon: But she always came up empty handed, In her [00:24:00] private searches, when Amy turned 40 years old, her medical history entered her consciousness more fully, so she decided to do a DNA test through 23andMe. Getting older and wanting medical information drives a lot of adoptee curiosity, but Amy also knew there was a chance she might find a link to a genetic relative, too.

[00:24:21] Damon: She submitted her sample in the fall of 2020, in the height of the COVID 19 pandemic shutdown, and received her results around Thanksgiving.

[00:24:30] Amy: And I remember I opened up my phone.

[00:24:34] Amy: And it said I had matched with a half sister and like, my mind was like blown. I remember calling from the other room to my wife, honey, I have a sister. She's like, what? She comes in and she's like, Oh, your results came in. I was like, yeah,

[00:24:52] Damon: you jumped straight to the results. You didn't even say I got my results back and I've got something interesting to say.

[00:24:59] Damon: You've

[00:24:59] Amy: got

[00:24:59] Damon: a

[00:24:59] Amy: [00:25:00] sister.

[00:25:00] Amy: I got a sister. Like the first thing that came to my mind because I grew up with brothers. So like this concept was like a whole like different world.

[00:25:08] Damon: Yeah.

[00:25:09] Amy: Wow. And my wife, her name's Tracy. She's like, so are you going to message her? And I was like, Yeah, I guess I'm like, what am I going to say?

[00:25:17] Amy: Like, and I didn't know, like if it was maternal or paternal, like I didn't have any of that information. So I, I sent a message and I just said, hi, I see, we're predicted to be, half, half siblings. I. Just wanted to reach out, like, something pretty basic. She got right back to me And she's like, yes, I took this test, specifically in case you would ever be interested in reaching out and connecting with, Your birth family and I am your maternal sister and I was like, Whoa, like,

[00:25:53] Damon: she was waiting for you.

[00:25:56] Amy: That's

[00:25:56] Damon: incredible. She literally set this up for the intention of [00:26:00] you finding them again.

[00:26:01] Damon: Wow.

[00:26:02] Amy: Yes. How did that hit

[00:26:03] Damon: you when she said that?

[00:26:05] Amy: I mean, it just blew my mind, it was intense. It was emotional, of course. And I just was like, I want to know more. And so I had messaged her back. And I said, thank you for your kindness and your thoughtfulness. And I appreciate that so much.

[00:26:23] Amy: And she had said in the message very specifically I will share with you as little or as much as you want to know at your comfort level.

[00:26:31] Amy: So

[00:26:31] Amy: she had really thought through all of this and he was like, incredible in so many ways. And it's a testament to who she is. So I had sent a message back and this was all through the 23andme app at this point.

[00:26:49] Amy: And I said thank you so much. If you would like to connect by a text message, here's my phone number. I hope that's not too forward, but I just wanted you to have [00:27:00] this. And then I didn't hear anything from her for like three days.

[00:27:03] Amy: And

[00:27:04] Amy: I was just like freaking out.

[00:27:07] Amy: I was like, I scared her off. Like it was too much. I shouldn't have sent my phone number. So on that third day I'd sent a message. I apologize if that was too forward. And, I just, I really appreciated our initial conversation. Hope you're well. And left it at that. And she got back to me and she said, I'm really sorry.

[00:27:25] Amy: She goes, I was I realized that you and I connecting is much bigger than just the two of us. And I had to think through that and sit with that. And then she sent me that message on. The app and then immediately texted me after.

[00:27:41] Damon: Oh, that's cool.

[00:27:42] Amy: And it was great. It was like, hi, this is me. I need to know three really important things, do you drink coffee, do you like margaritas and what's your favorite color?

[00:27:52] Amy: And like, it was great. And then from there, like it has just been Incredible. I will say so [00:28:00] that's how it started. So we had, we were just texting back and forth, but that day, that initial text message, she said, would you like to exchange photos? And We exchanged photos and that's really what turned my world upside down.

[00:28:13] Amy: In the start of my reunion journey, cause I'd never seen anyone who looked like me before.

[00:28:17] Damon: Yeah. What did you see in the photos?

[00:28:20] Amy: It took a while at first, but I remember I was sitting on my deck and it came through and I was just, I'm not often speechless, but I was definitely like. Speechless. And I was an on, I was like, there, there is another human who looks like me. That first like genetic mirroring emotions coming up.

[00:28:39] Amy: And I was like, wow. And she was very thoughtful. She's like, how would you like me to reference your birth mother? So she asked me how. First name or how'd I like to refer to her? And I said her first name's fine.

[00:28:54] Amy: And she goes, I have a photo if you'd like it. And I said, I'm not ready yet. I was so blown away [00:29:00] by just the picture of her that I was like, not ready quite yet. But hold it there because I will be ready at one point.

[00:29:07] Amy: So yeah, we yeah, it was just, it's cool.

[00:29:10] Damon: That, it sounds incredible. I'd love to ask you she sounds incredibly thoughtful.

[00:29:17] Damon: I'm wondering, What her sudden understanding was of when she said, I realized this is bigger than just you and me. What had, what, cause she did this, she put herself out there on 23andme to be found, but for you to actually make contact, it sounds like. made the whole thing real in a way that even she hadn't thought of.

[00:29:41] Damon: What do you think went through her mind or what did she tell you? That meant I realized this is bigger than just you and me.

[00:29:47] Amy: She knew in particular it was about our mother and the rest of the family who all knew about me. And who at one point my Biological aunt said, we've just been waiting [00:30:00] for you.

[00:30:00] Amy: Like you've always been a part of us. We've just been waiting for you is how she framed it to me. During one of our conversations. And she knew how difficult a journey it has been. For our mother. And that she would want to connect with me as well, but she also wanted it to be at my pace and at my comfort level.

[00:30:21] Amy: And she didn't want to she hasn't told me this, but I'm guessing she was probably caught between I'm talking with her, but no one else is. And how am I going to manage all this? And I've been waiting to connect with her. So I'm sure there was, I know there was some overwhelm there.

[00:30:38] Amy: So I, I think that's what it was really about. And knowing that I know now that's what I believe to be true.

[00:30:44] Damon: Yeah, this is the, Oh, I've got a great idea. And then when the rubber meets the road, you're like, Whoa, this is actually a really difficult thing,

[00:30:51] Damon: you know?

[00:30:52] Amy: so it had been like, it wasn't like she had just.

[00:30:55] Amy: Completed the test a couple of months before I did. I mean, she had completed the test [00:31:00] years before I did. So that's a big gap for nothing to happen.

[00:31:05] Damon: Yeah. So you've. Amy, you've received a picture of your sister. You're blown away, speechless in a rarefied way that doesn't often happen for you and your incredibly thoughtful sister is saying to you, how do you want to proceed?

[00:31:20] Damon: What is comfortable for you? How do we refer to my mom, our mom, and all of this stuff? And she's offered you a photo of her, but you haven't quite taken it yet. So what happens next? You and your sister are texting back and forth.

[00:31:33] Amy: We connected on the phone, I believe it was the day before Thanksgiving.

[00:31:37] Amy: And we were on the phone for two hours. It was just, it was like nonstop, like back and forth. And I will say, I, instantly felt connected to her. We had about two weeks of text messages leading up to that point. And she, again, very thoughtful. We talked about, our lives and our circumstances [00:32:00] and our families And she's like, what do you know about your story?

[00:32:05] Amy: Cause she, she was like, I don't want to, at one point she was like, I think that's for our mom to talk to you about, I had asked a question or something like that. so just very incredibly. Thoughtful through the whole thing. And I was like this is what I know.

[00:32:20] Amy: And she's like, that's what I know too. And like, I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad these stories match. And just an excitement to, to be connecting and talking to one another. At one point I said, I think I'm ready for that picture. And she goes, why have a picture of her and her sisters?

[00:32:35] Amy: Because one of the initial conversations was it will within that first conversation, I said my understanding is that my biological aunt and my adopted aunt. connected to Facilitate's not the right word, but facilitate the adoption. And she said she said, yes. And I said, I believe her name is, and you know, I had shared the name and she goes, yeah, that, [00:33:00] that's one of them.

[00:33:00] Amy: And I said, one of them, how many? And she said, three aunts. So there was four sisters. So she sent me a picture of my birth mother and her three sisters after we got off the phone. And again, floored like I could be the fifth sister. Like, Oh my goodness. I can't tell you how many times I looked at that photo in those initial months of reunion.

[00:33:28] Damon: Amy was reluctant to reach out to her birth mother in the first few months of reunion, and she wasn't comfortable just calling without some initial correspondence. Amy asked for her birth mother's email address. The day after Thanksgiving,

[00:33:41] Damon: Amy crafted a heartfelt email to her birth mother. She and her wife reviewed the missive together and made sure nothing was out of line. Then, Amy pressed send. Unfortunately, she got no reply. Literally, nothing. Amy reached out to her biological sister, Showing the email address she [00:34:00] had used to confirm it was correct.

[00:34:02] Damon: When her sister confirmed the email address was right, they figured the email must be in her mother's spam folder. So, they decided to do things the old fashioned way. Amy's sister gave her her mother's mailing address for Amy to send a letter.

[00:34:17] Amy: I remember the date on December 8th. I sent her a certified letter. Cause I was like, this letter is getting there. The email didn't make it in there. And then what happened because it was the pandemic over Christmas, the letter did not arrive till December 30th.

[00:34:32] Damon: Oh, cause they were going slowly checking mail. Oh yeah. Yeah. And there weren't a lot of workers. You couldn't be out like. Everybody was stopped and slowed down. So there wasn't a whole lot of mail carriers on the move. Interesting.

[00:34:45] Amy: So that was a really tough few weeks. Because I'm like checking the tracking number, like constantly.

[00:34:52] Amy: We were all on pins and needles because I have two other siblings. So they were aware that this was going on as well. [00:35:00] So everyone, not everyone, but my other biological siblings knew as well. Christmas is tough and I'm like, man, what if she received this letter?

[00:35:09] Amy: And she's like, I can't do this. And you know how you get in your own head about things.

[00:35:13] Damon: And

[00:35:15] Amy: so December 30th, I finally get confirmation from USP as that it was received. I was like, okay, I know she has it. And then on New Year's Eve, I was, we were getting ready to go to our friends for a small get together.

[00:35:32] Amy: And I opened my email and there was an email from my birth mother

and

[00:35:37] Amy: It was beautiful. I, it lifted a weight off me. I didn't know I had been carrying. And like, I was crying, I was shaking. I was like, I can't. It's real, right? So I took that like, I took that evening and the next day I wrote her back, happy.

[00:35:57] Amy: What did her

[00:35:57] Damon: email to you say?

[00:35:59] Amy: [00:36:00] So her email her email to me said she had been waiting for this day for forever, basically. And that she Was really hoping that we could connect and that we could connect at my pace and that she is ever so grateful to my parents for raising a, she called me a wonderful young woman.

[00:36:24] Amy: And she was like, I wish I could hug you right now and never let go. So it was, and she'd given me her phone number and she said, if you want to continue to email or when you're ready for a phone call, whatever. So I, I sat with that until the next day.

[00:36:43] Amy: I wrote her back and I, I sent pictures. I did not send pictures with the first with the first letter. So I had emailed two pictures of myself. Cause I asked her if that would be something she'd be interested. And she said, yes. And she said, She goes, when I got your letter and saw that you had emailed me, [00:37:00] she goes, I went through my emails and they automatically delete after so long in the junks because I couldn't find it because I looked through over 5, 000 emails.

Oh

[00:37:10] Amy: my gosh. So she's like, I'm so sorry. And yeah. So I had sent her an email back and said I'd like to continue, to just, to get to, she goes, whatever you want for me, I'm here for you, is what she said.

Wow.

[00:37:26] Amy: Awesome. She was like, I was like, whoa. Okay. Again, just like open arms, like, I'm here for you.

[00:37:31] Amy: Whatever you need I wanna be here for you. I said, okay. And I said I wanna. Learn about my roots, and know more about, where I come from and who I am and all those things. So I'd sent that to her with two pictures. And then two days later, she texted me and she goes, I keep trying to write you an email back and she goes, I just, I start crying and she's like, I, can we just talk, can we talk and I was like, Okay, we can talk.

[00:37:59] Amy: Yeah, [00:38:00] we can talk.

[00:38:00] Damon: Whatever you need, I'm here for you.

[00:38:02] Amy: I was like, okay. Cause I was thinking phone call first. So she sends a text message. She goes, okay, you want to do a video call?

[00:38:11] Damon: We're going straight to face, right? That's crazy.

[00:38:13] Amy: Face to face. I was like, Okay. So then we had a video call and that was like, that was wild. Like the lead up to it, I'm like pacing and the living room and, all the emotions.

[00:38:28] Amy: that went with that. And we were on the phone for, we were on a video call for about an hour the first time and it was intense. And then I'm like, Oh my God, I'm looking in a mirror. Like we look so much alike. The genetic mirroring for me was just really intense. I would say those first two years.

[00:38:45] Damon: That's incredible. Wow. Really interesting. So an hour on the phone, what happens next? Do you guys end up deciding that you want to meet?

[00:38:56] Amy: Yes. So it was still height of the pandemic at that time. So [00:39:00] that would have been our first call would have been early January, 2021. And we had a couple video calls after that, and we would, we were texting just little things back and forth.

[00:39:12] Amy: And I just was like, I remember telling my wife, I'm like, I have to meet her. I have to meet her. Like, I this is not working. Like, not that it wasn't working because it was, but I felt I just need more.

Yeah.

[00:39:24] Amy: Like I have to go. I have to go meet her. So I was like, maybe I can do it around my birthday.

[00:39:31] Amy: Cause my birthday is in February early February. And , Nicole had shared with me that early February was a hard time for her every year on my birthday. Nicole

[00:39:41] Damon: is your sister who you've been in touch with.

[00:39:44] Amy: Yes. And I was like maybe that's, you know, I could go around my birthday.

[00:39:47] Amy: So I, I said to her, I go, look, I really want to come see you. And she was like, I think she was a little blown away by it too. And she's like, that would be wonderful.

[00:39:57] Damon: The COVID pandemic required that Amy [00:40:00] set herself up to be extra cautious for the 10 hour drive to see her birth mother. She quarantined for a week, took a COVID test the road, packed her own meals so she wouldn't have to stop and buy food, and double masked when she dashed in to use the restroom.

[00:40:15] Damon: When she finally arrived late that evening, the ladies were excited to meet each other. But Amy was too tired after the long ride to meet her birth mother that evening. So the next morning, she picked up some flowers and went over to her birth mother's house.

[00:40:29] Amy: Here we go. I knock on the door and her husband. Answers the door. And he's like, I've been waiting for you for 22 years.

[00:40:39] Amy: Cause he was with her when I was born and she found out that she was pregnant with me. And that's a, a whole probably different episode, so he's been there with her through everything. He's wonderful too. so I Walk in and she came around the corner and it was like, she gave me a big hug, both of us are teary [00:41:00] eyed. And, so we, she's like, let me get you some coffee. And it just flowed. Like we're both like, I can't believe this is real. Like it was just so surreal to both of us that we were together. And she must have hugged me like a hundred times. She's like, I'm sorry.

[00:41:19] Amy: I'm a hugger. That's okay. I'm a hugger too. at every turn we were hugging. And at one point I said to her, I go. It is so good that this is real and that has become our like mantra through all of this, that it's good that it's real. So we say that to each other from time to time.

[00:41:36] Amy: I ended up there till almost five o'clock at night.

[00:41:40] Amy: , the conversation just flowed. It was such a juxtaposition to feel like I'm meeting with someone I don't know, but also meeting someone I knew forever at the same time. There was a comfortability [00:42:00] I didn't expect a connection that I didn't expect that was instantaneous.

[00:42:05] Amy: But also at the same time, like, I've never met this person before. At least, that I remember, obviously I weren't, but yeah, it was it was intense. So I left around five o'clock, there was a snow storm coming, so I had to leave. And I drove. About three and a half hours. And got a hotel for the evening and then drove the next morning, the rest of the way home before the snow storm came.

[00:42:30] Damon: You drove 10 hours for a full day and you left that evening. Wow.

[00:42:35] Amy: I did. And really what was surprised, most surprising to me is the next morning I was I don't want to say hysterical, but I was sobbing. And I remember saying to my, calling my wife and being like, I just found her. How can I leave?

[00:42:52] Amy: How can I leave? Like, it doesn't feel right. And she's like, honey, if you need to stay another day or two, like you can do [00:43:00] that. And I said, I know, but and I re I look, I realized now through all my research, I was re experiencing that the lack of attachment again. So that, that, that was what was going on.

[00:43:12] Amy: And I did, and I drove home and, I worked through it. But it was, that was very unexpected. I didn't expect to feel that way. And it was very intense.

[00:43:22] Damon: Yeah, I can imagine. You sounds like you almost turned around and went back. I mean, wow.

[00:43:27] Amy: It was, I contemplated it for sure.

[00:43:31] Damon: I'm sure if you're on the short side of three hours drive and seven on the other side, it's easier to go back and can keep going than it is to, keep continue with the seven hour journey.

[00:43:40] Damon: That's incredible. What did she reveal to you about your conception and adoption?

[00:43:48] Amy: Sure. So I had known that, so my biological aunt and my adopted aunt worked together and had shared that my [00:44:00] adopted mother was trying to conceive with no luck and, considering exploring adoption and whatnot.

[00:44:09] Amy: And my Biological aunt had learned that my, my biological mother was pregnant and had determined that she was looking to looking to adoption. She was 17 and it was not a good situation. But the family including my biological grandparents wanted to make sure that. I was adopted to a good family.

[00:44:34] Amy: That was, they were really concerned with that. They didn't want to pursue an agency or at least that's the sense that I get. So my biological aunt had told my biological grandparents, there's a, there's someone I work with and the I know the sister and my adoptive mom worked there briefly.

[00:44:53] Amy: So she had met my adopted mom, my biological aunt. Yeah. She said they're wonderful [00:45:00] people and, Perhaps we can see if they would be interested. They reached out to my parents. They confirmed of course, that they would be interested. And they secured an attorney like who, who did the adoption pro bono.

[00:45:17] Amy: It was a friend of a friend that, that did that. And so I was, they brought me home three days after I was. I learned that the attorney had to pick me up in the hospital for whatever rules they had at that time. And I think he delivered me to the parking lot where my parents were. So just a random learn during that day, my My, my birth mother shared with me her story and the story surrounding my conception and how difficult it was.

[00:45:50] Amy: And I could tell how hard it was for her to tell me the story. She was, at one point I went over and I sat with her and I held her hand as she was talking me [00:46:00] through it.

[00:46:01] Amy: She was really worried about, if I would be pursuing, the paternal side of the family and, what my intentions were there and understanding that just like, no matter what, like, she'd work through it and, but I could tell how hard it was.

[00:46:15] Amy: And I had said, look right now my focus is you and this, and, I will say from day. Day one of me ever pursuing a search. It has always been about my biological. So I just said, like, like, let's not worry about that at this point. Let's just focus on us and our journey. So she had shared with me the challenges there.

[00:46:37] Amy: Being pregnant at a young age and, how difficult that was for her and for the family and all the shame surrounding that and the challenges that, that she experienced. I got some more details that I didn't have previously, which was really helpful in my understanding and my journey.

[00:46:56] Amy: So it wasn't a nice day. We talked [00:47:00] about so many things. It was very emotional, but very beautiful at the same time.

[00:47:08] Damon: That's amazing. So you mentioned earlier that you had to come out as gay to your adoptive parents, but also that there was a challenge with your biological mother. Tell me a little bit about that piece.

[00:47:21] Amy: The challenge there for me, over the years was, if we do reunite, am I going to be accepted? Is she going to, Is she going to love me for who I am? Because one of the, I don't want to call it a term, but one of the understandings of my adoption my biological mother and adoptive mother spoke on the phone one time.

[00:47:40] Amy: And the request was that I'd be raised Catholic. And my mom, my adoptive mom was Catholic. So that was like, yeah, of course. And then, my adoptive mother had asked my biological mother not to look for me to let it to be on my terms, and they both like they both agreed [00:48:00] to that. They both were comfortable with that, letting any type of search beyond my own terms.

[00:48:05] Amy: My adoptive mother had told me several times when you're ready to search, I'll help you, I have your work. And so it was never like a thing that. That there would be a barrier for at least, in those brief conversations that we had. So, I was very nervous about that connecting and not being accepted.

[00:48:26] Amy: So it was one of our early like video conversations I had. I had said to her, I, I. I have a wife and we have a child and this is who I am. And you know what she said to me, she goes, Amy, I can tell how happy you are. And that's what matters. And. And that was a moment for me that I needed because in my mind, it would have been very difficult to continue a new relationship knowing that I [00:49:00] wasn't accepted.

[00:49:01] Amy: She, she may have her, other feelings about it, but they've never been they've never been at the forefront. If they're even there, she loves me. She loves my daughter. She loves my wife. They have accepted us fully into their family and. It's been, it was really important for me to know that going into this.

[00:49:22] Amy: And I've been given that gift and not that it's a gift, but it feels like a gift after what I went through previously.

[00:49:30] Damon: Yeah, that's really incredible. It is. It's wonderful to hear that she was genuine in her acceptance, right? you told me that she said, I'm here for whatever you need. And it wasn't just, I'll tell you everything as it applies to your and my story, but it's also, I'm accepting you as who you are.

[00:49:54] Damon: And that is massive. It's not something that everybody gets. And it's something that a lot of [00:50:00] people are fearful of. And it's not even it things as complex as, LGBTQ related issues. It's just, where I grew up, how I grew up, stupid things like politics that really don't mean anything.

[00:50:11] Damon: You know what I mean? Like, We have all of these things that are what we think, but not necessarily part of who we are that we're concerned about, and for you to have that unconditional love and acceptance is really awesome. That's really cool. Very good. So I wonder then you said that you noted the pain in her story and you didn't.

[00:50:36] Damon: You respected her desire not to search for your biological father, your paternal side. I'm curious, are you still there with her? I mean that curiosity gets to you.

[00:50:49] Amy: Sure.

[00:50:49] Damon: I'm wondering where you are on that piece.

[00:50:52] Amy: Yeah, no doubt. She knows that if I were to pursue something, I would be honest with her about that.

[00:50:59] Amy: And so she [00:51:00] understands that and that's where we're at. I have found him via social media. I've been able to see photos and whatnot. And that has for, at this time satiated where I'm at. I think. I mean, I know I'm not ready for another reunion. I can just be really upfront about that.

[00:51:19] Amy: It's intense. There's a lot to it. And I have such a, my life's really full in a good way. Not that it's perfect. But I'm just not ready. I don't know if I will be. But I just know right now I'm not ready, but I always reserve that. Not the right, but I reserved the ability to see. Seek out if I need to and I, know how to do that if I need to.

[00:51:43] Amy: And that's a comfort level right now.

[00:51:47] Damon: That's amazing. Really cool. Yeah. It's funny how the focus on the maternal reunion and the pain of her story [00:52:00] adoptees is often enough where you're just like, you know what? I don't, not ready to deal with that guy yet. Let me focus on her and what she needs and all that she's been through.

[00:52:10] Damon: And that was my case too. My, my birth mother told me the story of, her own sister getting pregnant premarital and then how that went in their family. And then she found herself pregnant several years later and she just had this, Oh crap. And, she knew how traumatic it was.

[00:52:30] Damon: And she told me the story of her. Finding out that she was pregnant and I don't know if you've heard any of mine, but it turned out that she didn't even have the right guy.

[00:52:38] Amy: Yes, Yes, I've read the book and I've listened.

[00:52:42] Damon: This thing where she was, it was painful for her to be pregnant, but also, it would have probably been painful for me to search for this guy.

[00:52:52] Damon: I elected to just push it down and not pursue. And then when she passed away, I was like, you know what? I [00:53:00] can't hurt her feelings or anything in any way by seeking this guy out. And so it wasn't until after he passed, she passed that I searched for him. So I'm with you on that, respecting her for who she is, especially because she has granted you this unconditional love, right?

[00:53:19] Damon: You want to respect it by saying, you know what? I'm with you. And that's great. I love it. Really cool. May I ask you, Amy, you've mentioned that you have a daughter. Did you adopt your daughter?

[00:53:30] Amy: So I had to go through the court proceedings to adopt my daughter, but my wife was the one who carried her.

[00:53:37] Amy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we had to go to court and we had to go through that process, which was interesting, but but she's biological to my wife. So she is not biological to me.

[00:53:49] Damon: So your wife was inseminated, your wife carried your daughter, but you, even though you are married, [00:54:00] as a couple,

[00:54:02] Amy: you had

[00:54:02] Damon: to adopt your daughter.

[00:54:04] Amy: I did. I think

[00:54:06] Damon: Is it only me that seems odd? That you're both the parents?

[00:54:09] Amy: It was very odd especially considering that I was listed on the birth certificate at the start. What?! Yes, it was it was quite the process. We had a phenomenal attorney who walked us through everything.

[00:54:22] Amy: So yeah, that was a little surreal too, like having to go through those proceedings and that process and made me really reflect on how. My family had to go through that on both sides of the equation. We both had to experience that. So that yeah it's very real.

[00:54:41] Damon: That's really wild.

[00:54:43] Damon: I've never thought of, nor heard of that before that. So just for clarity, a gay couple, especially for two women, one woman is inseminated with the embryo and carries the child, gives birth and you're married. [00:55:00]

[00:55:00] Amy: Correct. When

[00:55:01] Damon: the child is, and you're on the birth certificate.

[00:55:04] Amy: Correct.

[00:55:05] Damon: What is your position on the birth certificate?

[00:55:07] Damon: What do they designate you as?

[00:55:09] Amy: Two mothers. It says mother's name and mother's name.

[00:55:15] Damon: And then you had to go and adopt the child, even though you're a married couple.

[00:55:20] Amy: Sure did. Sure did. And they issued her a new birth certificate that looks the exact same as the

[00:55:25] Damon: first one. Exactly the same. Yes.

[00:55:27] Amy: So I joke, I'm like we both have two birth certificates.

[00:55:33] Damon: Oh my god, that's insane. I've never heard of this before. That is so wild.

[00:55:38] Amy: Yeah. And it's been interesting for her too, because she, she's been part of this journey and explaining to her, like I have two moms and she has two moms, different circumstances, obviously. But it's, I think it helped a little bit when like I was first going through reunion and she was five, I think.

[00:55:58] Amy: And going to meet my birth. [00:56:00] birth mother because she my adopted mother has passed. But she doesn't remember her too much, but you know, explaining the differences.

[00:56:09] Damon: Yeah. Really fascinating. Wow. Thank you for sharing that piece. You

[00:56:14] Amy: get

[00:56:14] Damon: another enlightenment from one of these interviews.

[00:56:17] Damon: It's just unbelievable. The stuff you learn when you talk to an array of people. So Amy, thank you so much for being here. This was really amazing. Thanks so much.

[00:56:26] Amy: Yep. Thanks for having me.

[00:56:28] Damon: Absolutely. You take care. All the best. All right.

[00:56:31] Amy: Thank you so much. Thank you. It's helped me a lot over the years.

[00:56:36] Damon: Absolutely. My pleasure. And I'm really glad to hear that. I've often said, if I could just touch one person doing this. That's all that's needed. And you're that person. And now your story gets to touch somebody else.

[00:56:47] Damon: It's awesome.

[00:56:48] Amy: Very cool. Thank you, Damien. All

[00:56:50] Damon: right. Very good. Take care, Amy. All the best. Bye bye.

[00:56:53] Amy: Yep. Same to you. Bye bye.

Closing

[00:56:54] Damon: Hey, [00:57:00] it's me. Amy's family was a safe space for her to live until she came out as LGBTQ. with that news, her adoptive family turned on her, reducing access to resources and trying to get her to seek help in order to change who she was.

[00:57:14] Damon: But Amy knows who she is, And seeking reunion, she hoped her birth mother would have a different feeling about her sexual identity. Fortunately, Amy's birth mother saw that she is happy with who she is, proving her words to Amy. Whatever you need, I'm here for it. I thought it was fascinating that Amy ultimately had to adopt the child that she and her wife artificially inseminated even though they were married. It just goes to show you that adoption comes in many forms and there's still a lot of work to do to get adoption right. I'm Damon Davis and I hope you found something in Amy's journey that inspired you.

[00:57:51] Damon: It validates your feelings about wanting to search or motivates you to have the strength along your journey to learn. Who am I really? [00:58:00] And just a reminder, I'm diligently working on my next book and it's coming together nicely. if you'd like to stay up to date on my progress, please go to whoamireallypodcast.

[00:58:10] Damon: com slash book two, that's book and the number two. Give me your name and email address and I'll be sure to send you some information along the way.